Ἕλληνες, Γραικοὶ ἢ Ῥωμαῖοι; Hellenes ἢ Greeks; (Β. Τσιάντος, Δ. Ῥουσσόπουλος, Γρ. Γεωργάτος)
Από την ηλεκτρονική λίστα "hellenism" (hellenism@vergina.eng.auth.gr)
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B. Tsiavtos, D, Roussopoulos, Gr. Georgatos:
From: Dimitris Rousopoulos
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 20:18:00 +0300
Subject: Re: Proeleysh ths le3hs "Greece"/"Graikos" (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 19:12:27 +0300 (EET)
From: Dimitris Rousopoulos
To: hellenism@vergina.eng.auth.gr
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Proeleysh ths le3hs "Greece"/"Graikos"
On Tue, 9 May 1995, V T Tsiantos wrote:
> Grafw ligo proxeira ta stoixeia gia tnv katagwgn tns leksews Greece
> kai Greek (Graikos). Eixa skopo va to kavw alla me prolabe o Fwtns
> me tnv erwtnsn tou. Tis akribeis avafores tha tis steilw aurio kai
> auto to mnvuma tha to stelvw taktika gia va mathoume epitelous oti
> to Greece dev eivai katholou upotimitiko opws vomizouv merikoi.
> Avtitheta oti prokeitai gia ellnvikn leksn kai oxi lativikn .n.
> tourkikn (!).
>
> 1. Professor Moses Finley
> "The Ancient Greeks", Penguin Books, 1984, sel. 16.
>
> "In their own language the greeks have never called themselves
> "Greeks" (that word comes from the Roman name for them Greaci)."
>
> 2. Kwstas Pleurns,
> "Peri tns Istorias kai tns fusews tou Skakiou",
> Athnva, 1982, sel. 43.
>
> "Prongoumevws (ev. oi Ellnves) ekalouvto "Graikoi". H ovomasia
> Graikoi pou avaferei o Aristotelns, to Pariov marmarov, o poin-
> tns Alkman (7os aiwvas px), nto kata tov Aristotelnv to palaio-
> tatov ovoma twv Ellnvwv."
>
> 3. Aristotelns
> "Metewrologika", 352b1-3.
>
> "Autn d' ouk aei kata tous autous topous, all' wsper o kaloumevos
> epi Deukaliwvos kataklusmos; kai gar outos peri tov Ellnvikov e-
> geveto malista topov, kai toutou peri tnv Ellada tnv arxaiav. Au-
> tn d' estiv n peri Dwdwvnv kai tov Axelwov; outos gar pollaxou
> to reuma metabeblnkev; wkouv gar oi Selloi evtautha kai oi kalou-
> mevoi tote mev Graikoi vuv d' Ellnves."
>
> 4. Alkman (pointns 7os aiwvas pX.)
>
> "Graikes twv Ellnvwv mnteres."
>
> 5. Hsiodos
>
> "Theogovia"
> (to sxetiko apospasma tha to steilw aurio giati to biblio
> eivai sto spiti)
> Avaferei oti o Graikos eivai gios tou Dia (!) kai tns Pavdw-
> ras korns tou Deukaliwvos.
> O Ellnv twra eivai gios tou Deukaliwvos kai tns Purras (oxi
> omws tou Dia).
>
> 6. Pario marmaro
>
> "Oi Ellnves ovomasthnsav to proterov Graikoi kaloumevoi"
>
> H ovomasia Greece loipov eivai oxi movo apodektn alla mas tima kai idiai-
> tera giati avaferetai se palaiotatn ovomasia mas. Ta sumperasmata gia tis
> plaves pou mporouv va pesouv akomn kai gvwstoi kai fnmismevoi Kathngntes
> (bl. Moses Finley) kathws kai n gvwsn "mn eidikwv" ta afnvw gia tov kathe-
> va sas.
>
> Sas euxaristw polu.
> Basilns Tsiavtos
Basiln, 9a mou epitrepseis va ekfrasw tis amfibolies mou gia to poso
apodektn kai avtiproswpeytikn mporei va eivai n ekfrasi "Graikos" gia tous
Ellnves.
Priv proxwrnsw se mia diatypwsi twv apopsewv mou, vomizw oti sfalleis gia
tnv "9eogovia". Exw tnv evtypwsi oti pou9eva stnv "9eogovia" dev
avaferetai n le3is "Graikos". 9a me evdiefere va mou dwseis to akribes
xwrio opou avaferetai aytn n le3is gia va diapistwsw eav telika eimai egw
aytos pou sfallw.
Opwsdnpote aytn tn le3i tnv agvoei o Omnros. H le3is "Graikos" avaferetai
sto Pario marmaro, kai stis "Hoies" (Katalogoi) [Graikov mevexarmnv =
Graiko tov polemoxaro].
9a n9ela edw va sta9w sto apospasmatio tou Aristoteln. Gvwrizeis oti
oudeis allos syggrafeys omilei gia "Graikous". Exw tnv evtypwsi, basei
aytwv pou mas paradidei o Aristotelns, oti pi9avotata n ovomasia aytn
syvdeetai me mia periodo metewrologikwv avastatwsewv (kataklysmos
Deykaliwvos) stnv 9essalia .n. F9ia kai xaraktnrizei tous pln9ysmous tns
perioxns, osous diasw9nkav apo tov kataklysmo. 9a mporouse va snmaivei
dnl. "plnmmyropa9ns" kata mia sygxrovn apodosi.
Tetoia ovomasia -opws n avtistoixn ovomasia "leleges" gia tous katoikous
tns Lokridos pou ypestnsav ta pavdeiva kai aytoi apo tov kataklysmo
["lelegia"= botsala, koxlakes]-, pi9avotata eivai dnlwtikn mias katastasns
(akraias symforas) kai oxi evos laou. Pi9avws kai gia ayto to logo va mnv
epekratnse to ovoma ayto stov ellnviko xwro.
Kati allo pou me bazei episns se skepseis eivai oti aytn tnv ovomasia mas
tnv edwsav oi "filoi" mas oi Pwmaioi kai metepeita oi Xristiavoi tou
Byzavtiou (apagoreyovtas to ovoma "Ellnv"). Nomizw pws ta kivntra twv
Rwmaiwv (kai twv Xristiavwv) dev ntav toso agva otav ovomatizav tous
Ellnves ws Graikous. Ayto evisxyetai apo mia eylogn paratnrnsi: giati va
mnv xrnsimopoinsouv oi Pwmaioi tnv ovomasia "Ellnv", pou eixe tote
oikoumevikn apnxnsi para diale3av eva 3exasmevo ovoma pou sxetizetai me
mia megaln katastrofn (kataklysmos Deykaliwvos) kai xaraktnrize mia
perioxn (9essalia)? Ma gia ayto akribws tov logo: "Ellnv" eivai mia
oikoumevikn sta9era. "Graikos" mia topikn ovomasia syvdedemevn me mia
katastrofikn gia tov ellnvismo avamvnsi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dnmntrns Roussopoulos
E-mail:Dimrous@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr
"To ellnvikov, eov omaimov te kai omoglwssov, kai 9ewv idrymata te koiva
kai 9ysiai n9ea te omotropa,..." Hrodotos
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From: Dimitris Rousopoulos
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 20:58:13 +0300
Subject: Re: Proeleysh ths le3hs "Greece"/"Graikos" (fwd)
On Thu, 11 May 1995, Giorgos Georgatos wrote:
> > Kati allo pou me bazei episns se skepseis eivai oti aytn tnv ovomasia mas
> > tnv edwsav oi "filoi" mas oi Pwmaioi kai metepeita oi Xristiavoi tou
> > Byzavtiou (apagoreyovtas to ovoma "Ellnv"). Nomizw pws ta kivntra twv
> > Rwmaiwv (kai twv Xristiavwv) dev ntav toso agva otav ovomatizav tous
> > Ellnves ws Graikous. Ayto evisxyetai apo mia eylogn paratnrnsi: giati va
>
> Total Confusion:
Eivai kwmiko va milas gia sygxisn esy pou xrnsimopoieis eva migma
ellnvikwv kai agglikwv, tn de agglikdn glwssa tn xrnsimopoieis gia va
eirwveyteis, me tnv paidikn afeleia oti 9a dwseis emfasn stnv apopsi sou
kai - ypoti9etai -, pros9etn aigln. Ka9arn periptwsi 3evomaveias -
3evolatreias dnladn. Kai opws faivetai Rwmaiolatreias.
Ektos apo tn glwssikn sygxisi pou se diakatexei, ypofereis kai apo
pveymatikn tetoia, prwtov giati ekfrazesai prosblntika paristavovtas
parallnla tnv ay9evtia, deyterov giati evw exeis pragmatikn agvoia epi tou
9ematos 9ewreis oti exeis to ala9nto.
Pros evnmerwsi sou loipov: O 9eodwros Mwmmsev pou asxoln9nke me tnv
Italikn E9vologia avaferei oti .
> Oi Pwmaioi pou les htav oi Fraggoi pou thelisav va karpwthouv to ovoma
> Pwmaioi, oi xristiavoi tou Byzantiou eivai oi Pwmaioi pou eprepe va 3exasouv
> to ovoma tous pou sivdeotav me tov teleiotero politismo pou eixe favei
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> epi ghs. Giauto kai tous dothike to Elliviko ovoma Graikoi gia va gkremistei
> to Pwmaiko.
>
> Giorgos Georgatos
Eivai favern n Rwmaiolatreia sou, alla e3'isou akatavontn. Oti o
politismos twv Rwmaiwv (aln9eia, poios politismos? Mnpws 9eleis va peis o
Ellnvikos Politismos pou e3av9rwpise tous Rwmaious kai tov opoiov aytoi ws
barbaroi kapnleytnkav ?) eivai o ypsnloteros pou efavn epi tns gns !!!
Ayto kai av eivai apopsis!!! 3epervas se favtasia kai tous Afrokevtristes
pou milouv gia Mayrn A9nva!!!
Parepiptovtws meta apo ta 9aymasta pou mas eipes, ti douleia exeis esy ,
mia ay9evtia tou Megalou Rwma.ikou Politismou (tnv Rwmiosyvn mnv tnv
klais...) edw se mia lista ypodeesterou politismou opws eivai n hellenism
pou allwste ligoi -elpizw kaveis- 9a densouv va se evvonsouv kai dev pas
va ta peis ayta stn korn (.n. eggovn) tou Moussolivi pou sigoura 9a se
akousei me evdiaferov.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dnmntrns Roussopoulos
E-mail:Dimrous@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr
"To ellnvikov, eov omaimov te kai omoglwssov, kai 9ewv idrymata te koiva
kai 9ysiai n9ea te omotropa,..." Hrodotos
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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